Breaking stereotypes, changing mindsets key to stronger ties: Pakistani envoy to Iran

Ambassador Tipu calls for free trade agreement to help reach $10bn target

Pakistani ambassador to Iran Muhammad Mudassir Tipu speaks to IRAN DAILY during an exclusive interview at the country's diplomatic mission in Tehran IRAN DAILY

Pakistani Ambassador to Iran Muhammad Mudassir Tipu believes that sealing a free trade agreement (FTA) and tearing down long-standing barriers that have held back greater cooperation can help bring the two neighboring countries closer. As both neighbors are determined to boost annual trade to $10 billion, Ambassador Tipu says an FTA could set the stage for a major economic upswing. Efforts to expand border infrastructure, keep trade crossings open around the clock, and smooth out regulatory hurdles are already in the works to help trade surge. However, the ambassador makes it clear that economic ties alone will not be enough. There is an urgent need to root out outdated perceptions that have stood in the way of people-to-people contact. He calls for a fresh approach, urging both nations to roll out cultural plans, promote academic exchanges, and use media and cinema to paint a more accurate image of each other. Whether through showing films, encouraging tourism, or bringing business communities closer, he believes that “breaking down stereotypes” and “changing mindsets”— the way Iranians and Pakistanis see each other— are just as crucial as any trade agreement. Read his full interview with Iran Daily for an in-depth look at his vision for a more connected future.

By Mostafa Shirmohamadi
Editor-in-chief

Iranians working on a section of a pipeline linking Iran and Pakistan near the port City of Chabahar

IRAN DAILY: Iran and Pakistan have set out to boost their annual trade volume to $10 billion. What steps has the Pakistani government come up with to make this goal a reality? What obstacles stand in the way, and how does Pakistan plan to work through them?

TIPU: Well, thank you. It’s always a great pleasure to meet you and speak to the Iranian media. I always love it because the more outreach I have, the more Iranian people will know what Pakistan’s ambassador is doing in their country. First of all, I must tell you that I have a great regard for Iran’s political institutions. I think that the Supreme Leader is one of the greatest leaders of our times, and the quality of governance in Iran is really remarkable. And I think President Pezeshkian’s leadership is navigating Iran through very complex times. That is the strength of his personality, the way you know, in a very complex geopolitical environment leading the nation. This is truly remarkable.  
You talked about trade. Trade, of course, is very, very important because the financial viability of both countries is critical. We have a 900-kilometer border. Honorable Prime Minister Shehbaz Sharif and honorable late president Raisi were profoundly wise to understand the potential of trade, and they agreed that trade should be elevated to $10 billion. Now, it is about $3 billion. Of course, it can be done. It’s not difficult at all if you are looking at the size of the economies. Pakistan is 240 million plus, and Iran is 80 million plus. We already have a huge market of 330 million. Demography, geography, and culture really help us. So, I think setting the target was very critical.
Now, the whole government has a clear target in mind. What we are doing: I am a very strong advocate of signing a free trade agreement with Iran. It’s going to help both countries a lot in the years ahead. We are having negotiations. Signing a free trade agreement, of course, entails complex negotiations. We are part of those negotiations. So, once the FTA is signed, that can be a big step forward.

Iranian trucks are seen crossing the border into Pakistan at a  checkpoint in Southeastern Iran

We are trying to open more border crossings. We are trying to increase the timings of opening the border because there is so much potential. We have even proposed that the border should be open 24-7, particularly at Zahedan, because it is the main trade artery between Pakistan and Iran.
We are trying to improve infrastructure between Quetta and Zahedan. Between Quetta and Zahedan, there is about a 500 to 700-kilometer area on which we want to develop the roads. We want to build more facilities there so that in the years ahead, trade flow can be facilitated. We have established a business council. Pakistan has proposed its name. Iran is also going to propose its name. Once the business council is going to meet, it will have many private individuals and many key companies. They will identify the areas through which trade can be promoted.
Pakistan’s exports to Iran have increased. We recently started export of chilled meat. This was about a year and a year and a half ago. And we were able to export about $120 million.
This is very good. I also want corn to be exported to Iran. Pakistan produces world-class corn. Pakistan produces world-class leather products, cotton-related products, and textile products. So along with corn, we export quinoa, bananas, and mangoes to your country.
And we want more cooperation between the governments of both countries. Wherever regulatory reforms are required, both countries should do them.
A very important element is improving infrastructure at the border: at Gabd, Mirjaveh, Taftan, and other border points. We are trying to improve the infrastructure there. Iranian traders often come to me. I also meet regularly with Iranian government individuals and trading bodies. They also propose different things to promote trade. So that is what we are doing. These are the practical steps that we are taking to promote the trade.

I want Iranian people and Pakistani people to be part of this process. There are stereotypes between Iran and Pakistan, and these stereotypes have been created by certain elements. We need to break down those stereotypes. We have excellent populations that are very educated and very dynamic. People-to-people contacts, contacts between chambers, between governments, FTA improving border structure, and wherever concessions can be granted to each other’s commodities, are very important elements.

The ground seems to be paved to reach this target, so what are the obstacles? Don’t you see US sanctions on Iran as an obstacle?
You know, obviously, wherever we live, we will continue to face obstacles one way or the other. The more important thing is the solution-oriented mindset. If we have a solution-oriented mindset, we can always find a way out. I am not bothered about any particular international regime. The domestic strengths and the political commitment of both countries are very, very important. That is what we have. And I have been here for about a year and a half. I have seen a great deal of interest being created within the Iranian business community about Pakistan and vice versa. Pakistani businessmen are planning to visit Iran. The Islamabad Chamber is bringing its own delegation in a couple of weeks. I am going to speak to the Lahore Chamber of Commerce and Industries next month, where I am going to make a very strong case to promote the trade. These are some incremental steps that will lead to a very substantial outcome over the years.

The next question is about a sizzling issue, a pipeline that was supposed to deliver gas from Iran to Pakistan. The two countries signed an agreement in 2009. The pipeline was supposed to come online in five years, but Pakistan failed to meet its commitments mainly due to external pressure, including US sanctions. Last year, Pakistan started to lay part of that pipeline from the Iranian border to Gwadar. I’d like to know how far you have gone and what you have done so far.
First of all, let me tell you two things. This is not a sizzling issue. The most important thing for Pakistan and Iran is to look at history, the future, and the depth of the strategic relationship. This pipeline would entail some billion dollars, naturally.

Iran has already invested $2 billion.

I would not say that Pakistan has failed. It was a complex phenomenon. Moving from signing the agreement to putting it into practice involved many challenges, but the good thing is that now we are interacting with the Iranian government, and we hope we’ll be able to find a solution to this issue.

I’d like to know your solutions. At least you must have an idea about the main solution you’re putting forward. How are you going to solve the problem? Have you started the construction?
The two governments are involved. We are trying to see how we can solve this matter. I cannot go into the specifics because, you know, it’s a technical project, a financial project, and a whole host of things. It’s going to be very complex. But I am giving you a broad view that we are both having very constructive discussions.

Pakistan is an energy-hungry nation and in dire need of gas. And Iran is very eager to start pumping gas into Pakistan. You know, the more the project is delayed, the more both countries will suffer losses.
The whole world is energy-hungry. It’s not only Pakistan, and you know the geopolitical context of the whole world is being defined largely by energy issues. There are energy needs, and there are energy-producing countries. Of course, there is a sort of need-based relationship between both countries. I would not say that Pakistan, but everybody, is in dire need. Pakistan also has its own energy requirements. And, of course, Pakistan has many options. The most important thing for Iran and Pakistan is their political commitment and the strength of their bilateral ties. The point that I’m hammering on is that we have to look at our larger geostrategic objectives.
The IP pipeline is just one part of them. Let us be very, very clear on this count. As you have articulated this issue very respectfully, I would like you to take a much bigger view of the challenges that both countries are confronting. Our original situation, the commitment of our leadership, the commitment of the Supreme Leader and the Pakistani leadership, and the broad stakeholders of both countries, how do they want to pursue this relationship? That’s what we must be cognizant of.

Last year, Iran and Pakistan exchanged cross-border fire. Actually, Iran carried out a drone and missile attack on several terrorist strongholds in Pakistan, and the Pakistani government retaliated by targeting a town in Iran’s Sistan and Baluchestan province. I would like to know the reason behind this exchange of fire. What should be done by both countries to prevent such incidents from taking place in the future?
First and foremost, we have gone beyond that stage, and the kind of political resurrection we have done this is just incredible, and that shows the vitality of this relationship, and the political military intelligence leadership of both countries played a very vigorous role in dealing with that situation. I do not want to get into the specifics of that incident. I would not characterize that there were strongholds in Pakistan. I have my own view, but since my relationship with Iran is very, very important, Iran is a great country, I would not like to portray it in that context; I want to go beyond that, and I want to create more trust between the intelligence leaderships of both countries.
In the past couple of years, cooperation between both countries has been extremely good, but the nature of the challenge is profound. We are living in a very complex region, and some external elements and countries want to imperil our relationship, and terrorism has assumed a transnational character. We have to be very careful and very cognizant of that.
We also must educate our masses about the context in which these things happen. The best recipe is development. I’m a very strong proponent of development between Balochistan and Sistan and Baluchestan. These are great historic areas with affiliations at borders running back into centuries.
We need to focus on those areas and development at a wider strategic level. We have to have greater cooperation. We have hosted intelligence officers. We have our intelligence officers in Zahedan. You have your intelligence officers in Turbat. That mechanism is doing very well. I think what we need to do is to have a very good and timely exchange of information in a very objective manner.
 
Do you categorically reject that Pakistan hosts anti-Iran groups?
I don’t think I need to answer this question. I think you know it. I think even an Iranian child knows it. And I think this is an affront to my country to be very honest to have this question. I mean, Pakistan has repeated time and again, and look at Pakistan’s actions. And as ambassador, I have unequivocally stated that, you know, territorial integrity and sovereignty of Iran is critical. Pakistan would not support any action that can impact the security of Iran. I’m unequivocally telling you that I condemn the terrorist forces, you know, which threaten Iran’s stability, and Pakistan will take a very decisive and strong action against any entity.

Fuel prices in Iran are relatively low compared with other nations, and Iran is grappling with a major issue on a daily basis, that is, the smuggling of at least 20 million liters of fuel out of the country. Pakistani media last year reported that the illicit trade brought some $1 billion worth of fuel into the country through smugglers, and they even pointed out that several government officials were involved. Iran is losing between $5 billion to $10 billion annually because of this illicit trade, which is not limited to Pakistan. Is the government of Pakistan determined to help stop the trade, or is Pakistan actually benefiting from it?
Let me ask you the question if I agree with your assumption, although whatever media has said I would have to cross check and verify it. I have spent many years in Pakistan’s diplomatic service, and I have to be very, very careful with every information that I collect. And unless there are government sources...

I’m just citing Pakistani media. They cited an intelligence report published by government agencies.
Based on the media, I cannot make any speculations. This is very, very clear. I would like to look at hardcore facts and what is the official position of the government because the government, you know, has the institutional mechanisms to make a case.
If I go by the media, then I can point to many things that Iranian media have been saying with a complete degree of irresponsibility, and I don’t want to get into that. But if I agree with your assumption, then I think the blame also lies with Iran. How do those things go from Iran to another country? But let’s not get into that debate. My answer to this question will be that, you know, both governments should sit together, try to find the way how we can make things more formal and the menace of smuggling can be curbed. For that, both governments need more cooperation and more understanding, and given the complexity of the border, it is really a challenge.
But I would not like to comment on a media report. I am not sure if it was correct. I am not sure how the entire figures were collected because, in my experience, sometimes perceptions and realities are hugely different.

But it’s common knowledge that fuel is smuggled out of Iran.
It may be smuggled. So many things happen all over the world. Even we hear that so many things happen in the realm of nuclear technology. But I, as an ambassador, would only speak on issues where I have some very authentic information that cannot be challenged.

Don’t you have any authentic information about this issue to share with us?
No, I told you. I said both governments need to sit, discuss, try to deal with this menace, and strengthen the border controls.

Let’s move to the softer part of the interview, which is about tourism. Iran, as a great civilization, could be one of the world’s top tourist destinations due to its historical places and monuments, but it mostly gets religious tourists from Pakistan: Shias who visit the shrines in Mashhad or Qom, or they just cross Iran to reach Iraq. On the other hand, Pakistan’s scenic landscapes could easily pull in more Iranian tourists. What can be done by both governments to increase tourism cooperation?  
Change the mindset, change the stereotype, and educate the public.

What are the stereotypes regarding both nations?
If you read about Pakistan, there are so many negative stereotypes about terrorism. Terrorism is happening all over the world. There are wars in which tens and thousands of people have been killed. So, you know, episodic isolated incidents are transplanted on countries. This is not the right thing. We have to see what is the potential of Pakistan, what is the potential of Iran.
Iran is a very beautiful country, rich in history, culture, and traditions, and so is Pakistan. We need to have more films, exchanges between universities, sister city relationships, and relationships between the ports. More and more delegations should visit each other’s countries. And we should give a constructive, positive and a beautiful view of each other’s countries in the media.
That is going to inspire the people. We are culturally similar and have a very deep-rooted history. What we need to change is the mindset. Even in Pakistan, people should change their mindset. They should know that Iran is a repository of history and rather than going to far-flung destinations they should visit this beautiful country. This will not only promote tourism and bring in more capital but also bring us culturally closer to each other.

What stereotypes do Pakistani people nurture in their minds about Iran?
They are all false.  They think that traveling in Iran is very difficult, that maybe Iran is like some exclusive country. But traveling in Iran is not difficult. No. Iran is a remarkable country, so secure and so beautiful.
These are the kinds of stereotypes that global media have placed in the minds of the people. We need to remove them.
 
Last but not least is cinema. I’m sure that you know Iran has gained fame in the world with its movies. Iranian cinema has already won two Academy Awards by director Asghar Farhadi, and just a couple of days ago, another Iranian director won an Oscar for a short movie. Pakistani cinema and TV series production is also booming and moving forward. Three years ago, this movie, Joyland, was shortlisted for the Academy Awards. That was great success for Pakistani cinema. So, what are the areas of cooperation between the two neighbors that are trying to disseminate a better image of their countries through culture and cinema?   
I think our dramas can be played in Iran, and Iranian dramas can be played in Pakistan with translation. This is the first and foremost. This is very very important and exchange of culture troupes. I am trying to bring a well-known singer of Pakistan to Iran so that people in Iran know about Pakistan’s culture.
I must admit that we have not done that much. Even as Pakistan’s ambassador, I’m saying this is an area where we have not done that much, and we need to do a lot more, and perhaps we need to learn from the expertise of Iran. You have won two Oscars, this is incredible. It shows that your elegance and your contributions have been recognized, and we are fast chasing that idea. Actors can visit each other’s countries. We need to have a broader cultural relationship to promote cinema and filming relations.